Scott Collins: 'Imitating Fox News Would be a Disaster for CNN'
The Los Angeles Times reporter and author of a new book on the cable news wars says CNN needs a "lightning in a bottle" idea to help it surpass the dominant Fox News Channel -- or Fox will become "even stronger."

By Patrick Phillips
I Want Media, 04/08/04

Scott Collins writes about television as a staff reporter of the Calendar section of the Los Angeles Times, and is the author of the new book "Crazy Like a Fox: The Inside Story of How Fox News Beat CNN," a dramatic and entertaining look at the "blood feud" for cable news supremacy between CNN, Fox News Channel and MSNBC. Prior to joining the Times in February, Collins was the Los Angeles TV editor for the Hollywood Reporter.

In a brief chat with I Want Media, Collins discusses why Fox News host Bill O'Reilly represents much more than "just a news guy," how the AOL-Time Warner merger crippled CNN, and why many viewers found solace in Fox News after 9/11.

I Want Media: What inspired you to write "Crazy Like a Fox"?

Scott Collins: I'd been looking for a book topic, preferably one close to my reporting background, and this struck me as a great story. I also believe that understanding the Fox News/CNN battle is crucial to understanding how the news business has changed in the past 10 years, and where that business might be headed.

IWM: Do you believe your book is "fair and balanced"?

Collins: Funny -- I actually have a blurb from Kurt Andersen that calls the book "fair and balanced." Well, yes, I do believe it is fair and balanced. And I think most readers -- especially those not aligned with one of the three networks -- will agree. Look, Fox News takes a few lumps, too. Check out the stuff in the book about Geraldo.

IWM: Who do you think will be the most critical of your book -- staffers at CNN, Fox or MSNBC?

Collins: I'm not sure. It's always hard to predict what people will or will not like about whatever one writes. It's better not to try to guess.

IWM: In the prologue of the book you write: "Where television news once only presumed to cover political warfare, it now feeds it." Can you elaborate?

Collins: I simply mean that as recently as 10 years ago, TV news still stuck mainly to the facts -- or at least tried to -- when covering politics. That's changed a lot in cable prime time.

IWM: Cable news ratings tipped dramatically toward Fox News after Sept. 11. If the terrorist attacks never happened, do you think Fox would be as dominant as it is now?

Collins: That's a very interesting question. And, of course, a totally hypothetical one. My guess is that Fox News would have overtaken CNN, but it wouldn't have happened as quickly.

Something clearly happened to news viewership in the months after 9/11. Once Americans recovered from the initial shock of the attacks they went looking for something to put the event into context. Viewers were flipping around on the dial looking for answers. And the Fox News patriotic, take-no-prisoners approach was like "Yeah, right!" for many viewers.

IWM: Will the possible spin-off channels of Fox News be viable?

Collins: Not only do I think they're viable, I think they're inevitable. Remember that [Fox News owner] Rupert Murdoch now controls DirecTV. He's going to need programming for those vacant channel positions. Fox is already a powerful brand -- one could argue that it has more market awareness here than [News Corp.'s] Sky News has in its markets. So it'll be interesting to see what arises.

IWM: How was Fox News able to leapfrog over CNN in just a few short years?

Collins: That's a complicated issue, and really at the heart of my book. Briefly, CNN lost its monopoly on cable news in large part because of the Time Warner merger; [Fox News chairman and CEO] Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch had a cogent plan to go after those viewers who felt left behind by CNN and Big Three Networks; and CNN failed to effectively counter the Fox News attack.

IWM: Did the AOL-Time Warner merger hurt CNN?

Collins: Yes, I think so. It certainly distracted the attention of senior management from some of the more mundane problems affecting the network. And it necessitated job cuts that alienated some of the remaining staffers at CNN, as the book makes clear. When I interviewed Greta Van Susteren, she directly linked the AOL merger to her exit from CNN months later.

IWM: What do you think CNN could do to surpass Fox?

Collins: If I knew that ... Seriously, I'm not sure. The problem is that CNN was approaching the news in a certain way for years and years, and then a competitor came in and made noise with a radically different take.

Imitating Fox would be a disaster; it would kill what made CNN distinctive. I think [former CNN president] Walter Isaacson and his team were right to reach that conclusion. On the other hand, Fox News is only going to become an even stronger competitor if current trends continue. CNN has a genius gap. They need a programming genius who comes up with the "lightning in a bottle" idea no one else has thought of. Maybe that person is there now and we just don't know it.

IWM: Why has the third-ranked MSNBC had such a problem figuring out what it wants to be?

Collins: Again, a complicated issue. Clearly NBC and Microsoft were counting on the Internet taking hold much more quickly than it did, and thus may have mistakenly linked too many of the early programming efforts to what was happening online. Also, NBC may have mistakenly believed that its stars -- Brokaw, Pauley, Couric, Williams -- would lead to big success in cable news.

IWM: You interviewed a lot of people for your book -- Bob Wright, Roger Ailes, Aaron Brown, Bill O'Reilly, Greta Van Susteren. But why didn't you interview CNN founder Ted Turner?

Collins: God knows I tried to interview Turner. I begged his office repeatedly to set something up, but nothing ever happened. They never officially said, "Ted will not participate." But it just never happened. It's one of my big regrets. I think he would have added a lot.

IWM: How important is self-described "journalistic gunslinger" Bill O'Reilly to Fox News? Would Fox News be hurt without him?

Collins: O'Reilly is hugely important to Fox News. He's clearly their lead guy in prime time, and he's also a deeply polarizing figure who creates a lot of buzz for the network overall. If he got hit by a bus, I think Fox News could still figure out how to win. If, on the other hand, he got hired by a rival .... well, that would be interesting. But there's no doubt that he's not just a news guy anymore -- he's part of pop culture.

IWM: Has Bill O'Reilly recast viewers' perception of what constitutes TV news?

Collins: I think you could argue that he has. To many viewers, O'Reilly is an "anchor," just like Rather or Brokaw, rather than a "host." So, over time, they probably begin to blur the two roles. There are probably some people out there wondering why Dan doesn't have a "Most Ridiculous Item of the Day."

IWM: Will cable news channels eventually will kill off the evening newscasts on the broadcast networks?

Collins: The evening news may die, but not simply because of cable. The Internet probably plays a big role in the ratings decline, maybe as big as cable does. And there are a lot of factors networks have to consider before killing off the evening news, including regulatory concerns, what the lack of an active news division would mean during an event such as 9/11, and what their owned-and-operated stations would put on in place of the news.

IWM: You write: "Cable news is a very different beast than broadcast." How so?

Collins: The audiences are much smaller in cable than in broadcast. There are far less resources in cable than on broadcast. That naturally gives you far different programming imperatives than NBC News or CBS News or ABC News has. That's one reason why you see so much talk on cable news. Talk is, as they say, cheap.

IWM: You suggest that Roger Ailes desires a larger role at News Corp. What do you think will be his future?

Collins: I don't know. After I finished writing the book, Roger re-upped for another stint at Fox News, so he will be there for a while. As for his eventual departure: He's given Fox News a great blueprint. But News Corp. would have to think long and hard about succession.

IWM: Of the many juicy anecdotes you unearthed, which one did you find the most interesting?

Collins: I was surprised when Walter Isaacson admitted -- albeit half-jokingly -- that he was a lousy TV executive. That's not the kind of thing you frequently hear from a well-known person. And some of the stuff was just plain fun, such as when Greta Van Susteren went ballistic in the control room after finding a guest for Headline News sitting in her chair before she was supposed to do her CNN show. It's all in the book, as they say.

IWM: Could cable news become even more partisan, if that's possible?

Collins: Sure. Take a look at a newsstand. You see a pretty wide variety of political viewpoints on display. Why couldn't there be, in the future, a network aimed at the crowd that reads Progressive or Soldier of Fortune?

IWM: Soldier of Fortune News Channel ... Well, I guess it's possible. Which news channel do you think will be the ratings champ during the coming presidential election?

Collins: I try really hard not to make predictions. I'm lousy at it.

IWM: How have the cable news wars changed the way Americans use the news?

Collins: Once again, it's a complicated issue. But I think Americans have proven they have an appetite for opinion and analysis in addition to just-the-facts reporting. Remember, except for labeled opinion pieces such as those by the late John Chancellor, editorializing had more or less disappeared from TV news programming prior to Fox News. Crime and other tabloid-type stories are becoming a much more important part of the news mix.

Cable news is driving the news cycle much more than broadcast news ever did, I think. Broadcasters often depended on what the New York Times had to say about important issues, which seems to be less of a consideration for all the cable outlets now. And viewers are probably less willing to be bored by the news than ever before. In this environment, what editors call MEGO stories -- My Eyes Glaze Over -- won't cut it.



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